Why did the pandemic cause everyone to quit their jobs? In the season 2 premiere, Leo is joined by Tech Recruiter Sean Page to unpack this question. They discuss scarcity vs. abundance; religion; common pitfalls of inclusivity; and how to find a job you feel passionate about.
By: Leo Yockey
All right, we're doing this we rolling. Hello, and welcome to the season two premiere of the Leo Yockey show, the show where I, Leo Yockey interview guests about the universal truths and their unique life story like that. That's a slightly different description than in season one. See, we're already off to a different start. what's what's new with y'all? How has life been in the last two weeks since we put out a full episode? Yeah, it wasn't much of a break between the two seasons. But that's because I'm really excited. Listen, I started this podcast, partially because I was quitting tech forever. And I wanted to start pursuing creative stuff. While I figured out what I was going to do next, and I've come around full circle. I am going back to tech. I'm really excited about it, actually. And I think there'll be more conversations about it in the coming episodes. my conversation with my guest today, Shawn page, was really the first seed that got planted that helped me realize that maybe going back to tech is the right decision for me after all, and that it's okay, I can I can do it. And my world isn't going to fall apart again. I met Shawn, through the tech Twitter universe, black tech, Twitter, a nod to former guests of the show, Paris, Athena. But anyway, Shawn is a technical recruiter. And I've always really enjoyed what he's had to say about diversity inclusion in the tech world, as well as some of his views on spirituality. And lucky for us, we were able to talk about both in this interview. So I really excited it's a great way to start the second season. Without further ado, here is Shawn page. All right. Hey, Sean, how you doing today? I'm doing well, Leo, thanks for having me today. Yes, thanks for coming on. I've been really excited to have you on the show. I mean, you've you've kind of been with me now through the various stages that I've been in, in the last like six months or so I think I talked to you, either right? Before I quit my last tech job or right after kind of somewhere in that realm where I was like, oh, cuz I was actually going through the recruitment process at your, your former employee, I'll let you take the lead on whether or not we're naming them. But you know, we so we were kind of talking then. And I'm like, yeah, I'm still gonna be an engineer. And then I got to talk to you later. And I was like, I don't think I want to be an engineer anymore. And you're like, I don't think I want to be at this company anymore. So you're kind of we're kind of both in, in flux and in transition. And a lot of it, I think, kind of, we're kind of riding the waves of some of the changes that are happening on more of a macro level. So I'm really excited to kind of dive into some of these these life topics with you. Yeah, no, thank you so much. No, I funny enough. Yes. So as Leah was kind of mentioning, or hinting, yeah, I used to work for a startup company called web flow. I started off my tech career there, started off as like a lead recruiting coordinator. And then I got promoted, and I was managing the talent brand there. And then I just decided to kind of quit, I realized that for me, you know, what I was really looking for was more autonomy and more control over the recruiting processes. And so I'm actually decided to go backwards a little bit. And I went to a smaller startup called propel, propel his product is focused on low income Americans, and provide them with financial solutions to help mitigate some of their costs of, you know, being low income in America, and so are in the US. And so working for that company, I now am a senior recruiter. You know, I'm the first recruiter there. And so I'm just going to be managing those whole recruitment processes, like really helping to build out like a very DNI focus and minded Recruitment Program from scratch. And so I'm really excited to be in this like, you know, very major change maker seat to really have control over that. And so it's kind of like we were talking about, you know, a little bit earlier about careers, you know, as you continue to kind of go on and you continue to learn more about yourself. It really helps shift and mold your attitudes about what you're willing to put up with or what you're willing to seek out in the workplace. And so I kind of had that epiphany. I think a lot of people it's Today, in this, I forget what they call it, but like this quit this huge, huge quit movement, I think a lot of us are starting to realize that, you know, we really need to find out like what our passions are and, and quarantine really opened our eyes up to like time is but at the essence right now we really have to be out here, I'm really thinking deeply in attentionally about what we want to do next in our careers because careers are part of our lives. But it shouldn't be the full part of your life either. And so I just think it's really interesting just to see just how much movement and in the market that's going on today and how much we're seeing people actually choose themselves in the in the workplace. Yeah, definitely. Because kind of like, what what I was saying to you before, before we started recording is like, some of this mindset of really thinking about what you want to do, and and really thinking about how you want your career to look like it's one thing, like, for example, in my, in my world, you know, to be a software engineer, it's one thing to be a software engineer, it's a whole other thing entirely to say, I want to be a software engineer at this company, kind of company that offers these kinds of benefits. And does this kind of work out in the world. And it almost feels to some degree like to have that mindset is, is it almost feels like Oh, so you want to have your cake and eat it too. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, shouldn't you be grateful for what you have? Because I think that that was the mindset that my parents had is the mindset that my parents had to have. Right, because the world was different back then. And why have you put into any thought into like, why you think that that has shifted so much for our generation, as opposed to like our parents generation? Yeah, no, I think that's a really great point. I think, you know, from my standpoint, I think a lot of what our parents and our parents generations and generations before that went through was a period of scarcity. You know, you were talking about people who who endorse the Great Depression, people who endured the civil rights movement, people endured slavery, and all these other major events that happen in the world. And we're now entering a new age of like new types of events, like we just weather Donald Trump, we just, you know, now we're gathering all the things that are going on the borders of immigration, I will weathering all the issues that are going on with climate change and stuff like that. And so I think, because, you know, a lot of people are kind of like reaching to the point enough is enough, is really shifting our mindset to more of a mindset of abundance. You know, we're really thinking about what do we what do we have today that we can really celebrate within ourselves and with the people around us? And how can we really think more deeply about our connection with just like capitalism and thinking about how we're consuming and things of this nature, and and so I think a lot of people are now like, stepping back and really realizing that like, from this place of scarcity that we've been living in for many, many years, you know, we've been like really damaging the earth, we've been damaging each other, we've been damaging, anything that we touch. And so I think coming from a place of abundance means leaning back into spirituality, people are becoming more just in tune with their connection with the earth and how they're connected to other people. And so I think there's just as a large amount of people who are more and more waking up to the fact that they need to think more in a style of abundance and stop being so concerned about what can I consume and start thinking more about what am i consuming now? And what impact is that having on the people in the planet that I live in, in and I interact with? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that you you made that connection, that we're diving into the deep end, so early, so to speak, because i i agree that I think that spirituality does have a lot to do with it. I think that not even necessarily to say that spirituality and abundance mindset, not even necessarily to say that that is opposite of Christianity, although in some ways it kind of is. There's there's just some places where they don't necessarily coexist really well. But I do think that Christianity and capitalism go hand in hand really perfectly in a way that spirituality and abundance mindset and capitalism don't. And it does seem like there is is more of a breaking away from our culture as a whole on the mainstream being Christian by default. And in that we're starting to see some of these shifts take place. I know for me, I actually grew up in a new age church I grew up in, there's actually called religious sciences, the exact church that I grew up in and all throughout high school. It was like I would always say I grew up in religion. Just science, it's not Scientology. It was always like it had this lengthened name because I always had to say, it is not Scientology. It was not Scientology. But it did. It was born out of this. I think it was called New Thought movement that kind of came about in the early in the last century. And you know, there's there's books like the science of getting rich and thinking Grow Rich all kind of come from this same, this same philosophy. And I've talked to some friends that also grew up in this church with me, I mean, we went to what we call it like hippie church camps, like we would literally up a bunch of teenagers all standing around in a circle, literally setting each other energy and telling everybody that you're beautiful, and you're the face of God, and that we are hugging each other. I mean, we seriously did. And I've been talking to some of those friends, I'm still in touch with them. The somatic healer that I told you about that will be a past guest to the show at this point, Stephanie. Yeah, you know, we we've talked about how growing up in that kind of primed us for this, for this new mindset that the world seems to be in now. And I know that you're kind of doing some things on your journey. You you've talked a lot, you know, you talk a lot publicly about like, Tarot and astrology and stuff like that. What was your path into this? Like, spiritual way of being and living? Yeah, no, that's a really great question. Well, it's so funny that you've had to describe literally my own upbringing when it came to spirituality. So really? Yeah, yeah. So I'm a Unitarian Universalist. Oh, what up? Yeah. Yeah, very similar. Very similar. My mom and stepdad go to a Unitarian Universalist Church now in my hometown, because science church kind of fell apart. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's so interesting. Yeah. So like, literally the same model of upbringing, you know, doing church lock ins, like being the one blackface in a sea of white people doing, like, you know, stuff. And, you know, it was a very great upbringing in the sense that it really challenged my connection to not just what Christianity is, but what are all what is religion, right? I think a lot of times, you know, when people are, you know, practicing a religion, it's kind of blind faith where, you know, their family member, or, or members of their family are the ones that are really pushing for them to, like, pursue religion. And so there's no personal real connection beyond the familial when it comes to religion versus like, for me, my, in my household, no one actually pushed me to go to church, like, you know, I had a period of time when I was like a Unitarian Universalist. So it was three years when I decided I just didn't want to go to church. And I had that whole, like, break from church. And then I decided to go back because I realized that I was missing some, like, spiritual aspects of my life. And so I think, for me, my journey with spirituality was always something that was foundational to my identity. And so for me, you know, growing up in that faith, it really challenged my notion of like, you know, how do different religions like really profess their relationship to God and so I got to go to like so many different churches, I went to synagogue, I went to mass like I went to like, all these different religious like ceremonies and holidays and things like that. And so I think being a part of that religion that was really just open to like other religions and like, really, they also talk about in celebrate that their religion is based off the knowledge of all these different sources, we call them the six sources. And so for me, like, I think that was such an eye opening experience, because I'm always someone that I don't believe I don't necessarily believe in boxes, and I don't like putting people in boxes. And so for me, being in a faith that was like, kind of like virtually boxes, like was variously not had didn't have a box, it was just kind of special thinking when it came to like spirituality. And that kind of led me up to my spirituality today, I've met so many different people within that religion. And so a lot of them expose me to like all these different like, rituals and practices and things of that nature. And so that's how I kind of got into astrology and Tarot. And for me, like I realized, like that was, those are the tool, two tools that I personally use to have connections to my ancestors, and also to, to have a connection to the planet and to people. And so that was sort of how I kind of got to where I'm at today, where now I'm kind of just like, very open when it comes to spirituality. And I've realized that there's so many different ways of how to really be someone who is spiritual, and there's no real one recipe of doing it. And I think that's just a lot of what life is like a lot of times we're we're trying to go on to find paths that other people have gone on to but I think we're all slowly realizing those defined paths of the past are actually being eroded. And we have to define new paths. And so I think it's just so important for us to when we're you know, trying to be spiritual people, or we're trying to To figure out who we are to remember that you're the ones that are defining your path, like yes, you have other blueprints to fall on to you. But you're the one that is truly defining what that new path looks like for that new for that next generation. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah, growing up, in, in my church, we were always taught, see, see the good in every religion find find something good in every single religion and I think we have I was actually just earlier today as I was listening to a podcast with a Palestinian comedian was a gas Yeah, her name is Mei soon, something I don't remember. But anyway, she, the host was asking her a little bit about the Israel Palestine stuff going on. And, you know, one thing that she mentioned after, you know, kind of giving a download of everything that was going on, she made a point to say, you know, like, it's it's very difficult to make the distinction. But there is a very real distinction that what is what the Israeli government is doing is not to be conflated with the religion of Judaism, you know, and that these are two separate things. And I think that we have a version of that going on in our own country where we've kind of conflated the abuses of power. And I guess that's it, the abuses of power, that that and the veiled hatred, and sometimes not so veiled hatred, that comes with Christianity and kind of understanding as difficult as it is that you know, Christianity in and of itself did not do this Christian, just like any religion, they're just tools. Yeah. And you can use a tool to, you know, create and build compassion and to connect with others. Or you can use a tool to divide and to, you know, dominating and exert power over, you know, defenseless people and stuff like that. And, you know, all all that being said, like I, you know, there's, there are aspects of Christianity that I actually find really beautiful, and really inspirational, you know, and it's been a struggle, I think, you know, like, in my hometown, you know, growing up, you know, as like a little butch lesbian in my small town and having this very ginormous, very influential Baptist Church, making my life unnecessarily difficult and having this like other very large Christian church with a very large teen group where they said, you know, don't hang out with kids if they don't go there. So it made everything so socially difficult for me for no reason at all. It was it was a journey for me to kind of decouple those things, but I'm so glad to have gone on that journey. Because kind of being able to it almost sounds like inherently sinful the way that we've you know, the the way that we've kind of been taught to understand religion in this country, but here in America, where everything is just a hodgepodge, to kind of create religion, or to see religion as like a choose your own adventure, almost like a buffet, where you take what you want, and disregard what you don't, you're so radical, but it is so freeing to be able to do that. It's for me to be able to be like, you know what, today, I'm gonna, like, go find some random, like, Bible verse and contemplate on that, and then not think about Christianity again for a month. And then yeah, you know, do my own version of Tarot or meditation and things like that, you know, like, it. It's really cool that it seems like more people are kind of opening up to that, you know? Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, definitely. I agree with that. And I think a lot of it stems from the fact that like, religious freedom is like, also something that's really new to us, you know, we're as much as like, you know, certain political parties wants to censor and say that we're a Christian ethio state, like, there's no actual, like, defining religion in the US, you know, the founders didn't want us to have religion to infect the state, because they realized that, that separation of state and church was so important, because they saw the impact that it was having on Europe. And so like, you know, seeing it today and seeing just like the religious freedoms that we have, it's just so like, you're just saying, it's so powerful. It's so impactful that I think a lot of people take it for granted today. They don't realize that like, if you were you know, born back in the 1718 century years, you're talking about being an atheist, like, you could be hanging in the middle of the square right? Like that's not something that like people were, you know, cool with and it's not that people today are like necessarily 100% like, you know, ready to embrace atheism but If you still have the the protections of the law to be able to not only practice and believe that in your, in your schools at your home, you know, and to also to be able to have some protections, if you know, for instance, like with medical things, you know, there's like religious protections and things like that. And so I think there's a lot of ways that our society is allows people to practice their beliefs. But I also think, you know, we're also, you know, a society that like, challenges, beliefs as well, right? I think we have a lot of like, you know, Christian groups that are out here who are really trying to challenge whether or not like religion should be the major focus of the US. And I think that is really causing people to really question whether or not religion is a positive or negative thing. And I think those conversations are just so important, because like you said, before, religion is just a tool, the Bible, the Quran, whatever, you know, religious texts that you prescribe to, those are tools, it's the human behind the tool that creates the experience. And so I think it's so important for us to remember that and when, when we're having because like, for instance, like, growing up, as you you, I remember, like, certain adults were coming from other religions. And so whenever we use the word God, like, there was a visceral reaction, like, they were so upset, like, they could not even say the word God, because they were so harmed by their past religion, and seeing that from my eyes that like, insane people get upset and angry over you just having the uses of God and like, in a, in a human or, or a song or something like that, like, seeing those reactions really shows you just how much harm is has been caused by religion. And so I think there's just needs to people need to just remind themselves that like, hey, like, let me separate the pain from like, the pain from the actual artifacts from the actual people who are causing the pain, right? Like, it's not the artifacts that are causing this, it's the people behind it. And so I think it's just so important for us, like, you know, when we're trying to embrace these things that we need to remind ourselves, like, we have to separate the experience from the actual, like, source of truth of what it is. And really, by doing so we can really critically evaluate it on a level that's going to let us be able to either be receptive to it, or to truly reject it as something that's not useful to us. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Christianity, or any religion really could go away tomorrow. And you know, the people that were using it to abuse power will find something else to latch on to, to veil, their abuse of power. You know, it's it's us kind of separating the people from the artifacts Exactly. Like you said, and yeah, it's so important. It's so cool. Man, I, I did not expect, I was hoping to broach this subject with you, I did not expect that we would get so deep into the real talk. So thank you for going down that rabbit hole with me. It's I love talking about this stuff. I think it's so cool. And it does seem like there is a lot more of an appetite for that stuff in and for these conversations and an openness to explore paths of spirituality that aren't necessarily the ones that that most people grew up with. I mean, we grew up with this. Do you ever feel like I think about this alive? Do you feel like there is a privilege or an advantage to having grown up with this, with this faith? And with some, at least some understanding of these of these principles that we've been talking about? Yeah, I mean, I think there's like, yeah, there's definitely some privileges in terms of being more open minded and receptive. And like when you're, you know, dealing with other communities that may not necessarily believe what you believe in, because, you know, our like, you know, at least in our religions, you know, they're very much so the practices are so centered on like, being in an interconnected web of life, and like, how do we interact this people? And how do we think beyond our identities? And how do we connect to ourselves like, through that, that common connection of being a person and so I think when you have that type of belief is a lot easier for you to interact and be with other groups and to be a little bit more receptive to how you move through those groups. And so I think that is a privilege to be able to think in that manner, and to actually have that like kind of open mindedness. But I think it's also a double edged sword to write because I think especially I'm sure you have experiences like this as well, where there's members within our faith who, you know, blindly believe that and so they sometimes get people who shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt, like rapist or racist or whatever, they'll give them that leeway because they think about connection to human. You know, human a human means that we have to forgive people. And I think, you know, forgiveness, you know, it really depends on what you I believe in when it comes to forgiveness. But I think when you're talking about like people who do systematic harm or that harm other people, there's a way there's a grace that you can give to those people and be like, Hey, I'm not trying to inhumanely punish you, but you do have to, like, be kind of like, you know, we have to acknowledge the harm that you caused. And we have to, as a community heal from that. And so I think it's just so important that, you know, when we talk about the openness that we have, that we are critical about that openness, right, like, you know, just because you it's like inclusivity, right, it's like, you know, a lot of people believe that inclusivity means that every single person should be able to belong in the same space, and should be able to have the same access to the same opportunities or whatever. But when you're when we're talking about a Jewish person and a Nazi, in the same room, like does inclusivity still exist? Like, do I still have them in that same space? And my argument is now, how can you have two people not only just competing ideologies, but one person specifically wants to cause physical harm that will may lead to death to the other party, you can't be inclusive in that space, like, you have to acknowledge that there's already recognizable harm in that space. And you have to be able to understand that and in sometimes being the the way to be the most inclusive is to know who to exclude, and who know what groups traditionally, or historically can't be in the same room together. And so I think there's this like blindness that also comes with that openness, that like sometimes that I see from, especially from, you know, people who describe as liberal, that they don't really think that deeply about that like, kind of more so like, yes, we want to be open, and we want to all communities be able to interact. But we also have to be critical and understand the historical nature of these groups, and understand that it's not a Kumbaya circle, it's not just like, Oh, we can all come together and seeing Amazing Grace, and that we're all gonna be good after that. Like, that's a fantasy. It's there's historical harm that different groups have caused. And so you can't have that inclusive environment, that truly inclusive environment that a lot of people dream about, because of the fact that these groups have not healed, these groups have not been able to heal. And we have to recognize that we have to make sure that when we're creating these spaces that we're thinking about the hit not just the current present, but the history behind those present relationships. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that man, I'm so glad you brought that up. And this is actually going to tie very perfectly into back into careers, we're gonna, we're gonna go all the way from, you know, Todd talking about, you know, religion in the ways that it, you know, divides people all the way back to career stuff. But I do think that, you know, so this is actually something that I've, I've kind of struggled with a little bit, that blind faith that you're talking about, like, just kind of, you know, almost like for forgiving people who don't really deserve it for letting people in to spaces. And sometimes that space is an actual physical space, like a working environment or something like that. And sometimes it's a, it's my own emotional space, like letting people into my heart that don't really deserve it. And I think that that is like the peace of abundance, the peace of inclusivity the peace, the peace of all of this interconnectedness that doesn't get talked about enough is that to be able to most of what it takes to make room for what you want in life. And, and make room for your vision involves saying no, no, to learn to say no. It's It's such a paradox, right? Because you want to follow this like year of Yes. And like saying yes to things and being open and receptive, while also getting really, really good at saying no, it's like getting getting really clear about what your vision is that you are seeing, yes, and being very receptive to those things, while also learning to say no, in and it's such a it's such a difficult line to walk sometimes, you know, especially for me, I was actually just talking to another church friend about this recently that we both, you know, like will it's so easy, I think to get into relationships where, you know, in, in hindsight, it's like, oh my gosh, this person didn't treat me well at all, like we didn't even have aligned values but if I like dumped them for that or whatever, if I walk away from this situation, am I just inherently thinking that I'm better than them and and i think that also falls into the the job stuff like we were talking about earlier. It's like, if I am not grateful for what I have, then aren't I just, man, I just lost it if I if I'm not just grateful for what I have. Then I'm just, oh, wow, I totally just have it, but it does, I'm sorry, I can't even help you there. I don't, I'm not even sure what were you trying to think of? I know, it's, it's, um, if you are sitting thinking that you have to be grateful for what you have is not allowing the space for the things that you actually want. So, being grateful for chairs is kind of, like you said before it, it relates to scarcity mindset. And so all these things connect, you know, and I, and I do think that like, kind of raising that vibration in one area of your life makes it so that it's actually really difficult to get that vibration in other places. And that's kind of what I was asking, like, when you when I said, you know, like, is this a privilege for you? Because I think that, you know, no matter no matter where that spiritual journey took you initially, you know, it's like, it's like, no matter, like, if you improve your relationships, so to speak, using this mindset, like, now, it's gonna be so much easier to improve work, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, I think a lot of our struggles really start from within, I think a lot of people, you know, when we, when we talk about struggles, like when it comes to finding a job, or like, you know, get it finding that significant other or, you know, trying to have a better relationship with our family, we always look at the external issues first, before we start with the internal issues. And so we've always want to blame everything on every other aspect within our life, is being caused by external factors that we have no control over. And, you know, that's one way to think about, and I used to think about that, you know, whenever I had a problem, I always would, you know, count out all the risks that was around me that was causing me not to be able to get to the solution that I wanted. And I realized, like, pretty early on in my career, that's actually a detrimental mindset to have. Because like, by having that like, mindset is actually creating fear within yourself. You're so fearful about all the other risks that are around you that you can control that you stop to think you stop realizing that there are things you do have control over, right. And you want to blame your destiny, not because I'm failing because of the things around me, I'm not failing because of me, like I'm doing all these things. And it's not being receptive. I hear about hear this all the time, from people who are applying to jobs and things like that. And there's true there are factors are stopping you, right? Like there are bad recruiters out there. There are people who are not like truly trying to, you know, hire for diversity, there are people out there who don't have good intentions when they hire people, like all those things are true, but also what's also true in the sense and what I've, I've also found from like talking to different job seekers is there's people who are very rooted in fear, they're fearful that they can't find that, that they will, you know, go and put their application out and find out, they're not the hot person that they thought they were. And that scares them that scares their ego, or they're fearful of the fact that like, maybe the next place is going to be worse than where I'm at today. And so they're like, I rather just go and stay with the beats that I know, then go to the unknown beats that I haven't dealt with before. And you see scenarios like this all the time. And so I always tell people, this is why, you know, for me, and and guess this is the privilege part, right? Like spirituality is your core is who you are as a person, and how you move in the world. And so when you have a good foundation within yourself, it allows you to be able to realize that like, which you need to be worried about is not all these external factors like yes, these are important. Yes, these are risks. But the business biggest risk is you, you're actually your biggest risk. And if you don't know that, you need to recognize that. And you need to realize that if you're not in touch of yourself, you don't love yourself, you don't understand who you are, then it's so much easier for people to take advantage of you, it's so much easier for a job take advantage of you for a significant other to take advantage of you because you don't even know who you are, you don't even appreciate who you are. And so if people recognize that, and they look for people like that, like and that's how people find themselves in those bad situations. And a lot of times I'm not going to say all the time, it's a lot of it is also luck, too. But I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that when you have low self esteem or you have a lot of self doubt, it really prevents you from being able to move forward to the ways that you want to be in your life and your career, your love wherever else about you that it's important to you and so that's why I always tell my people that I work with when I'm like dealing with job applicants and stuff like that. You see me on Twitter, I always hype people up because I understand that you know not a lot of people are out here rooting for other people and not a lot of people are out here trying to help other people establish their own self love. And so for me like my job as a recruiter is to The biggest hype man for every as many people as I possibly can, now, I'm still human to you, I can't hype up every single applicant that goes through the pipeline. But the ones I do get to connect with and the ones that I do get to have that first initial call with, I always end up rooting for them. Because that is my job, my job is to make sure that this person knows that I believe in you. That's why I put you in this pipeline. And I want to see you do your best because at the end of the day, I want to see you get what you're you're working towards, but you want because applying for a job is like the most. And you know this from your own job. It's the most energy draining experience ever. And so it My job is to give you that little bit of energy, if anyone else is not going to give you that energy, I'm going to give you that energy in that pipeline. So that you can do well so that you can reach that goal that you're looking for. I love that. And and you know for you, you know, I know, my first thought when I saw that you you got this job at propel, which by the way, just from what you described of the company's like mission. And what they do also just sounds like it aligns very well with your values. And okay, so I go on to Twitter, which by the way, I see maybe three tweets at a time when I go on Twitter, I spend very little time on there now, but ended up on my timeline. And my first thought was, oh, they I mean, this must be a really good fit. Because with where Sean is at right now, he's not going to just say yes to anybody. So how did all these things that we've been talking about? If you can just kind of summarize, we're almost out of time here, like, What? What was that process for you? Like, what, what made you say, yes, to this to this company? Like what what did you kind of go through? Like, what what were you bringing into that recruitment process? To be certain that this was what you were looking for? Yeah, that's a really great question. So I would say for me, the first thing I did was be vulnerable, I actually went out on my personal Twitter, and I was like, towards the end of my relationship with my last employer. And I realized that towards the end that like, you know, the values that I thought we both shared, weren't actually the true values of the company. And so, for me, you know, I, I realized that, you know, from that experience that like, you know, you know, everyone's on their different journey, when it comes to DNI and I want to respect that. And I definitely do want to give people credit when credit is due and who are pushing the ball forward. But I come from a background of being really radical when it comes to DNI. And so for me, when I'm being hired to do something, I'm going to truly do it. So when you ask me to, like, create a DNI program, I'm responsible for every single person that I hire, right? Like, it's not like, I'm hiring, you know, putting black and brown people in your your, on your desk, and like having them work as engineers, or product managers or designers, or whatever. And then I just go about my day, like, I think about those people, because not only is my reputation attached to it, but they're also people, they're, they're my people, they're my community. And so I had to be responsible for that. And so when I start to recognize that, like, hey, you're not doing the steps in which to really help people move forward. And to really empower those people, I had to start thinking about myself in that situation. And so I decided for the next company that I wanted to go with, like, I not, you know, I wanted to stop further. Like, I didn't want them just to have a product that they say, like, you know, we really care about our customers, you know, we really want to have this diverse set of customers, that's great. But what I really liked about propel is that they've specifically called out low income Americans. And like, for me, seeing that like specific call out and seeing how our CEO, how many people across the leadership team talk about low income Americans every single day, that to me was just such a green flag that I just had to apply to it. And, and I'm not saying like, you know, propell was like, you know, like, top choice either. Like, it was one of many choices, like I was interviewing at 30 different startup companies like, like, large like institutions to and so for me, being in that scenario, I had to be really intentional about what that next step look like. And I really had a struggle because at the end, at the end, I was between propel, and another and the Democratic National Committee and so, you know, and that was for a different role that was for like a propel was a senior recruiter role. At the DNC, it was a chief of staff role. And so that was going to be really very my for her, and I was going to be reporting to their CTO, and all that stuff. And so for me, you know, being in that scenario and seeing, you know, just how far I got into my career, I realized that, you know, there was choices that I had to make and between these to different offers, I've realized that the choice I had to make was the choice for me. And I had to choose me and, and, and for a lot of my career, I always chose Title I always meant like, title crazy, I've been like trying to get myself into, like fischli into management. I've always been management, Jason. But you know, I've always been someone who's been more influential than someone who had a bunch of reports. And so for me, like, I've just been so passionate about like, wanting to be a full manager and wanting to, like, have that opportunity again, because I had that at one point in my career. And so I've been trying to fight to get back to that point. And so for me, it was just like, it came down to the like, I could have chose my career, or I could have chose myself and just be an environment that I know, really match my values. And what really helped me just be more centered as a person. And so I ended up choosing propel, because I realized that like, you know, I kept choosing title after title at the title, and that wasn't making me happier, like, choosing the title wasn't making me happy, because the environments that I was being put in, weren't necessarily environments that were really 100% conducive to all my skill sets, all my knowledge, all my passion. And so now being part of propel, I feel like I'm that much closer to a vironment that really matches what I'm looking for, from an employer. And, and for me, that's so important. And that's why when I like do my screenings, you know, like, people will talk about this all the time attack and like, they'll say, you don't need to be passionate about being attacked. Like that doesn't matter of law, right? That's fine. It's true. And I definitely agree that there's like, you know, you always need people who are going to be like, just like the nine to fivers, you're going to go in, do what they need to do and go out. But the people who are going to really move your organization forward, are those passionate people who are actually able to not just do their job, but they're communicating it well, they're going out there and talking about what they do, they're branding themselves in their work. And that just shows so much more about what those people can do, and how much more of those people are willing to do. And so like for me, I think that like being in an environment that really activates and allows me to be passionate, just helps me produce my best work, it helps me get to that next step. And it might not be what the same path, what it might look like, if I could took the Chief of Staff role. But ultimately, I get to define my career, I get to define what that looks like. And there's so much privilege and but there's so much freedom in the fact that I'm able to do that on my own. And to do that, as a black, queer male, in the tech industry is huge. And so I understand that I recognize that privilege. And I just encourage people, that if you do have that privilege, if you have the ability to choose yourself, do it like stop being afraid to do that in your career, and your love life, whatever aspect of your life that matters to you. Because by not choosing yourself, your that is probably why you're feeling burnt out. That's probably why you're feeling like you don't have connection to the things that you're doing. And so reconnect with yourself to really figure out what is what what do you actually need? Not what do you want? But what do you actually need for you to actually move forward and be the person that you want to be in this in this world? I, Shawn, I love that so much do you do you have a couple of minutes for me to kind of go over what what the what I got out of this the takeaway here to know we're going slightly over time here. So what I'm what I'm hearing for your story, and I'm kind of, I want you to hear this, but this is also you know, for the listeners is to be able to have a job that you feel passionate about. First of all, it takes understanding that the responsibility is in your hands, you have the responsibility, you also have the power, right. And you have the responsibility to be vulnerable, which takes a lot of courage. And sometimes it takes time to build that courage. But it really does take being vulnerable and being willing to share what it is that are your true values. Because it's not about like you said, it's not about what you're doing. It's about what kind of why you're doing it. And that's on your individual level, as well as the macro level as a company. It's not just what are we doing, but but why. And you kind of mentioned that the, you know, the CEO, talking about and calling out specifically low income people was important to you. And then at that point, you know, once you got to align with that, it also becomes a numbers game. And that's so important, I think, to be able to stay in that abundance mindset versus scarcity. Because if I'm interviewing with only one company, if I'm dating only one person, right? Like, it's going to feel like oh my God, this has to work out or else X, Y and Z. Whereas I said I was like, Oh my God when you said you were interviewing. I mean I'm sure these weren't all eggs. At the same time, but it's still interviewing 30 with 30 companies that really gave you a lot of options to really kind of play around with those values and see what does that look like in action and to really kind of keep your feet moving and to stay in action on your end and making sure that you're kind of putting in that work to get to where you want to go. And then from there, and this is a really difficult part that I'm still struggling with too, is non attachment to the results. That's what I hear, when I hear you talk about you're kind of moving away from being really focused on titles, it's non attachment to the outcome, and just understanding that no matter what your title is, that what's really important is that you're living your values. And by practicing all those things into really putting that into work. You now I mean, hopefully, right? You're still new, you know, you're still probably on his honeymoon phase, you'll you'll be a little better. And by the time this comes out, but it really sounds like you have put yourself in a good position to be able to be passionate, because compared this route to are just gonna apply to whoever's hiring and hopefully or x out and well, man, if I'm unhappy, it's their fault, because they suck and they're a bad company. But you know. Exactly, exactly. That was a really beautiful summary. And yeah, you got it. Perfect. Thank you. I try. I've done a few of these now. But yeah, I think you know, that's that's pretty much about how much time we have think thank you so much for coming on shine. I like I said it did not expect this conversation to go so deep into spirituality. I'm so glad that it did. I think it is just again, a reflection of how much that that is a part of both of our individual identities. And so yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to discuss that with you. I hope that the listeners enjoyed it too. But I think that they will. Yeah, no, just thank you so much for just having me part of this show. Like, it was just such a great experience to be able to just the flow and just be in conversation. I really love this format. So this was really fun. But yeah, no, I just want people to know, listeners who are listening out there. Like, if you're looking for any like recruitment advice, you're just looking for a champion, as you're going through your recruitment process. You can always follow me on Twitter, my handle is at Sean, capital T talent, capital W at the end, you can always follow me. I'm always there just providing, again, like tips and just encouragement, because I understand just how hard this like recruitment process is, especially for those who are trying to break into tech. And so you know, I definitely just want you to know that I'm out here rooting for you. I'm Leo's are rooting for you. We're all rooting for you. So keep up the good work and just know that you're not alone. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you again, Shawn, do you have anything else you'd like to plug or promote before we head off? No, I think that's it. That's it. Yeah. All right. Perfect. I'm just gonna hit stop here real quick. But thank you so much, Shawn. Yeah, of course. That was a really fun. Oh, man, that guy real deep, real quick, did it. You can expect a lot more that in season two of the Leo Yockey show. And hey, if you enjoyed what you heard, please consider giving me a five star written review. It'll go a long way. It is truly like currency in this world. And let your friends know what you're listening to make a screenshot of this and make it your Instagram story. tag me on Twitter, I have the links to all that in the show notes. Speaking of the show notes, if you're in tech, and you're looking for a new job, Shawn also wanted me to include the link to the job board at propel. So that is also in the show notes. Please check it out. I certainly will be because dammit, Shawn, we got to work together at some point. And hey, I'd like to hear from you too. If you have someone that you'd like to see interviewed on the Leo Yockey show, let me know, hit me up on social media. Or you can send me an email. My email address is Leo at Leo yockey.com. All of the links again, are in the show notes. I cannot wait for the next episode. Thank you all for being on this journey with me. It's it's continuing to be a blast. It's gonna be honestly it's gonna be so much more fun. Once I'm making money again. And I can start really investing into this podcast making it sound better. And just being able to bring more cool content. So yeah, stick around season two's gonna be a blast. Stay evolving.